He created the world, set it into motion. He has a Plan, a Will that will come to pass. He knows us from before the womb, knows our every step, and has prepared a place for those that He has chosen. Bla bla bla.
Today the speaker said, "He has chosen us! We wouldn't be sitting here if He hadn't set our identities! Our faith itself is a gift."
So I asked, "What about the transsexuals? The rapists? Isn't it God who chose their identities?"
And he replied, "Oh no. THAT is not from God."
***
It astonishes me, the number of "intelligent" people that are able to live in denial, ignoring this issue or making excuses to get around it. How can someone say that there is such a thing as something that is NOT from God, while at the same time believing that God created Everything?
God created the world.
God knew everything that would happen, because He set everything into motion.
Therefore anything and everything that happens was intended by God to happen.
***
Why are some Christians so afraid to admit that God is responsible? Responsible for all the terrible shit that has happened and is happening?
Why are they unable to see that God allowed Sin to come into this world?
Yes Free Will. Ooh free will. He already knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit when He put it in the garden. Why did He put it there? The only reason: He INTENDED them to eat the fruit and bring Sin into the world.
38 comments:
disagree (as usual)
lol there are some parts of that post that refer to you, Jo.
why did god wanna bring sin to this world then?
@ Brandon. I don't know.
Ok firstly to the post. The speaker firstly mentioned Genesis 1:27; God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; MALE and FEMALE He created them. According to this scripture you see that God NEVER created transsexuals or homosexuals. It is humans who deceive and distort themselves (Romans 1:18-32). Sin came into the world because Satan fell and deceived the whole world, Jesus came to restore and to save. God's not responsible for the sin that's happening, we are (James 1:13-16) It's a choice that we make and we can chose who we serve (Joshua 24:15). Please use scripture to back up what you want to say or refer other people to. Free will? yes. check out Deuteronomy 30:11-20.
I am not trying to give you answers, only to make you rethink what you believe to be fact. If you continue to hold fast to knowledge that has been spoon fed to you rather than considering things with your own God-given mind, then I will not bother trying to penetrate your metal bubble.
To sin is to break the law of God, it is the act of not doing what God wants. It came into the world simply because God gave man the free will to choose whether he will obey or not. Romans 5:12 - "... sin entered the world through one man ..." Sin wasn't created, it was a result of an action. Sin is simply not measuring up to God's standard, wherein we all fall way short. God set the parameters for what sin is by being Himself, no more, no less. This is why I don't admit that God is responsible and to blame for all the sin that is happening in this world
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure'. (Is. 46:10).
There's your biblical reference. God is saying, "I've determined EVERYTHING that is going to happen. And nope, I won't change my mind. MUAHAHAHA, I'm doing it because it entertains me."
I really don't believe in the Bible because it's so dodgy. I can even use it to argue against developed doctrines.
err.. jean, are sure you aren't taking that verse out of context? Context is everything when it comes to the bible. half of christians get it all wrong cause they pull a verse out of context.Not saying that you are, but well, if you want to put that verse into context.. then you'll have to consider the nature of god. The nature of god isn't concluded from a collection of verse, its concluded from entire passages and books, testaments and ultimately the entire bible. Back to that verse, God didn't make all this for entertainment, all we know was created cause,in simple words,wanted something to love though he didnt need that something. The bible's not dodgy. Unfortunately I still don't know the bible well enough and deep enough to be able to give you such good answers. but if to you the bible's dodgy or doesn't present a strong enough case, more likely then not.. its we who don't understand the bible well enough.
and this homosexuality thing? its a case of nature vs nuture. God gave free will, and I guess he knew that all this would happen. on that basis maybe you could say God is responsible for it, cause he knew better.
But then again, if he didn't give us free will, he might as well have made robots, but robots don't love back.
then again, he could have not put the tree there, and hence prevent sin from entering the world, but I guess cause sin entered the world Now God had a reason to love us even more. I bet perfect beings get boring after awhile :P
Don't take my word for it.like you wanted jared, this is what I've learnt in my own accord with the assistance of wiser people and This is what my god given mind has come up with.
Yes, I actually just pulled it out and took it completely out of context to prove my point...haha.
Truly, I love the Bible. I think it's a magnificent book...but to say that it is the ULTIMATE guide to life and that EVERYTHING in it is true, is slightly unintelligent, I think. Like most good literature, it takes effort to understand and each reading of it will probably reveal different things. But as a rule book, I think it's awfully dodgy.
"...but I guess cause sin entered the world Now God had a reason to love us even more. I bet perfect beings get boring after awhile."
For his pleasure, isn't it? But I like that you are sticking by your beliefs, Isaac, and that you are defending them with originality. =)
Just a collection of my thoughts in point format.
* There's a difference between knowing how something will happen and intending something to happen.
* Nature vs Nurture
* How far does YOUR knowledge on free will extend?
* What defines us, the person that we are? If your answer is 'The sum of our experiences' then, in my opinion, you are correct.
These are some thoughts to think about. They might seem unrelated or even blindingly obvious to minds such as yourselves, but if you ponder on them hard enough, you might get my viewpoint.
p.s. I sound like a pretentious ass in this post because I am sleepy and my normal prose does not seem to be flowing as smoothly as I would like.
"These are some thoughts to think about."
Definitely.
"p.s. I sound like a pretentious ass in this post..."
Thank god I know you personally then. But yeah...interesting. Let's talk about this face to face. I'm not a debating person though...I prefer discussions.
And words are arbitrary so whatever knowledge I have on free will is limited by the meanings that I have attached to those words. I'm open to other meanings though. And that would open up a whole other train of discussion. Splendid!
Haha Josh I like your points. They matter.
*Knowing something will happen when you set something into motion, then letting it happen means you intended that thing to happen. One cannot not want something to happen while knowing that that thing will happen even before that thing begins to happen.
*nature and nurture. Nature: We are created by God. Nurture: God knows everything that we will experience. In fact, from the beginning when He set the world into motion, He knew.
*Free will is our ability and freedom to make choices. It does not mean God does not know what we will choose?
*Our identities were created by God. From birth, and through our experiences in the specific cultural and historical position He has placed us in.
Sin is the result of an action of man and Satan, both creations of God. Can a perfect God make a mistake? I don't believe so... therefore He perfectly created us to do what we have done...
How can something that is NOT of God's will come to pass? A world that is created completely by one cannot have something that is not intended by that one...
Sin is not from God? Just the absence of God? Then it is just His deliberate absenteeism that is the cause...
But it is Man who rejected God? Man created by God. Is that our nature? To reject the Creator?
We return back to Josh's points... What is the nature of Man? Can it be in our nature to sin, although we are created by God? Did God's creation go wrong?
I'm very sleepy too...
Okay, going to lay some foundations first. A whole big chunk of your argument rests on YOUR understanding of how free will works. Are you familiar with the
concept of the multiverse? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse Basically, in the multiverse, there are universes that run parallel to ours. There's a
universe where you a) woke up, b) brushed your teeth, c) scratched your butt and then d) changed your clothes. In the multiverse concept, there is a universe
that run parallel to ours where you did a, b, c, but not d and another universe where you did b, c, d but not a and et cetera ad infinitum (more like ad
nauseum but anyway...). I think you see the where I'm going with this.
Similarly with free will (from what I understand, which may or may not be empirical truth), instead of being forced to do a certain action, we are instead
presented with choices ranging from a-z, bestest to worstest. It may look something like this:
http://img96.imageshack.us/i/choicechart.jpg/
Now that the foundation is set...
From the last few paragraphs, it does look like you're looking for someone to blame for our woes, physical or otherwise. Let me try to answer your statements the best I can.
"Sin is the result of an action of man and Satan, both creations of God. Can a perfect God make a mistake? I don't believe so... therefore He perfectly created us to do what we have done..."
Is the creator of the gun culpable for the mis-use of it? Instead of using it to defend and protect, it is used for murder, vengence and dark things. Again, this falls under the category of free will. He created us to think and be capable to acting on those thoughts. However, how we act is up to us.
"How can something that is NOT of God's will come to pass? A world that is created completely by one cannot have something that is not intended by that
one..."
I personally believe that God has intended for bad things to happen to good . I will elaborate later on.
"Sin is not from God? Just the absence of God? Then it is just His deliberate absenteeism that is the cause..."
Unlike Darkness and Light (Literal, physical, Darkness and Light), God and Sin do not share that same definition. Sin seperates us from God rather than "is the absence of God". However, God cannot tolerate sin because of His holy nature.
"Knowing something will happen when you set something into motion, then letting it happen means you intended that thing to happen."
Not entirely true. Knowing something will happen and then letting it happen is the consequence of God offering free will to us. Let's take relationships for example. Uncle Mike used to share this view with us and it's something I agree with. God can bring us someone who can be the perfect fit in our life and giving us a lifetime of bliss and happiness and sometimes we choose to reject that person because of reason x. God then bring us the next best fit, etc etc. It sometimes may not be in that order but I think you get what I'm trying to say. Intending something to happen isn't quite the same as letting it happen.
Similarly, with Sin and Satan, I believe it is something that God allowed to happen. With a word, He could have struck sin, Satan, disease, sickness, poverty, and hurt away. Again it is to do with free will. Sometimes the road in front of us has many different choices. Some good and some bad. Some that God wants us to take, and some that God does not want us to ever choose, but at the end of the day, what decides the choices we make is US. However, because
Jesus died for us, after every wrong choice that we make and another set comes in front of us, God offers another choice: Redemption. It may not be the easiest way or the smoothest, but it does offer us a chance to 'start over'.
But even as I say that, I do believe that God does intend for bad things to happen to us. Hurtful and painful events or situations have a way of reminding us of certain things that we have forgotten or chosen to ignore. I think as thinkers, academics, philosophers, and scholars it is very easy for us to fall into that trap of trying to fit God into our man-made box of logic and reason. If it was up to us, nobody would ever be hurt in any way (except for the people we don't like. >=|), nobody would ever have to miss a meal, and nobody would ever have to die. We create this cage of our thoughts and feelings and we push God into it. If he fits, He is a flawed God full of the same mistakes and mis-steps as we are capable of. If He doesn't fit, He doesn't exist. It's really a lose-lose situation. I do feel there are things we will never fully understand and situations that we will never truly accept. We will always question, though, but really, ours is not to reason why. I guess that's really where faith comes into play.
Sigh. Stupid formatting made me delete my posts. =/
"We create this cage of our thoughts and feelings and we push God into it. If he fits, He is a flawed God full of the same mistakes and mis-steps as we are capable of. If He doesn't fit, He doesn't exist."
I agree with this. But I think the "God" in this post is Jehovah. And the problem is that a lot of Christians want it both ways. Very few admit to the fact that sometimes Jehovah INTENDS for bad things to happen to us. They always say that he "let's it happen". I feel like that in itself is placing limitations on Jehovah.
If Jehovah is really all they say he is, and if he is the deity that they choose to serve, then they have to respect all his characteristics--the ones they know and the ones that are still a mystery. I mean...we don't even understand the actions of our fellow humans, how can we understand a deity's? Fundamentalists put Jehovah in a box. They want him to be what they want him to be. Jared is asking them to let Jehovah be who Jehovah is and accept him that way.
"Is the creator of the gun culpable for the mis-use of it? Instead of using it to defend and protect, it is used for murder, vengence and dark things."
The gun was designed to shoot a particle at a high speed. Whether it is used for murder or to protect, it fulfils its created purpose.
"Unlike Darkness and Light (Literal, physical, Darkness and Light), God and Sin do not share that same definition."
Tell that to the HUGE bunch of Christians who preach that sin is the absence of God.
I think what Jared has done is highlighted the common arguments used by traditional Christians. And he has used those arguments against them.
By the way, I dunno why I can't find you on MSN. You're on my contact list but right beside your name it says "Invite Josh to Messenger". ???
The gun was designed to shoot a particle at a high speed. Whether it is used for murder or to protect, it fulfils its created purpose.
Fair enough. I had a feeling that the metaphor wasn't the most accurate, anyway. Let me try again: We were given the capability of killing another person when God created us, but when you use it unjustly, then it's YOUR fault, not God's.
Tell that to the HUGE bunch of Christians who preach that sin is the absence of God.
While I believe that God is absent from the presence of sin, but that's not the truest definition of what sin is. It's whatever separates us from God. I do think that Christian speakers, Pastors or otherwise, need to be careful how they phrase certain sentences. The things that they say can sometimes mean have a totally different meaning from what they intend despite their best intentions. Careless Christianity, I suppose.
I agree with this. But I think the "God" in this post is Jehovah. And the problem is that a lot of Christians want it both ways. Very few admit to the fact that sometimes Jehovah INTENDS for bad things to happen to us. They always say that he "let's it happen". I feel like that in itself is placing limitations on Jehovah.
I want to know what your views are on Job's situation.
Oh, about the email thing, it's because the email I'm posting this from is my gmail account. My hotmail is my MSN account. =)
mmm yes the problem with this issue is that no metaphor or analogy will be completely correct... This is because God has an attribute that any human inventor cannot have, the knowledge of what his creation will do.
The gun metaphor is possible, only if the creator of the gun, knew before and when creating the gun, every single thing that the gun would be used for.
We are free to make choices, we are given options, but God created us, and He created those choices too.
The multiverse is an interesting and appealing idea, unfortunately it cannot settle this debate, as we are unable to interact with those altiverses...
I am not seeking to place blame for the ills of this world...I am simply sharing the thoughts that I have had, the same thoughts that have made my faith stronger...
For we can't have it both ways. Nothing can happen outside the Will of an all-knowing, all-powerful God who is the sole Author of the universe.
Once I understood that God's ultimate Will will come to pass, I questioned, WHY? What is His purpose?
There is no answer to this, and BECAUSE there is no answer, the only way is to throw yourself into His will, following Him without understanding, for the fact is, we CAN'T understand. And that is my faith
Okay, but you have me on MSN right?
"I do think that Christian speakers, Pastors or otherwise, need to be careful how they phrase certain sentences."
Agreed. When I was a follower of Jehovah (I know, sounds a bit funny but I dunno how else to put it), I used to be very angry at some of the stories told over the pulpit that "exhibited God's power". I always thought that they made him sound very petty and vindictive.
"I want to know what your views are on Job's situation."
Well, from what I've read in the Bible, Jehovah really does seem like a God that keeps his promises. And he seems to have infinitely more power than us so I would say that he has every right to do what he wants to do. People who choose to follow him just have to trust him, I guess.
I really don't know how much of the "rules" we are meant to follow come from Jehovah and how much are man-made but I don't agree with a lot of his principles. And for that reason, I am no longer a follower of Jehovah.
And because I no longer subscribe to the faith, I agree with you on this (except for the part where God created us):
"We were given the capability of killing another person when God created us, but when you use it unjustly, then it's YOUR fault, not God's."
In my quest, I realized that I couldn't have it both ways. Either I accept Jehovah for who he is--crazy megalomania and all--or stop following him. I chose the latter. It was a really tough choice because I really had an extreme love for him. (I know I sound very flaky. And I am a bit actually.)
The thing is, you can't say that God is the author of everything that has happened, that he has planned everything from start to finish, and yet not believe that sometimes he is directly (or indirectly) responsible for the things that have happened. And that, I think, is the issue here. Jehovah has been watered-down to become a namby-pamby.
Jared, we posted at the same time..haha.
Oh and I meant that the issue with Christianity today is that Jehovah has been watered down.
The multiverse is an interesting and appealing idea, unfortunately it cannot settle this debate, as we are unable to interact with those altiverses...
The example of the multiverse is supposed to illustrate the idea of free will, not act as a working metaphor.
For we can't have it both ways. Nothing can happen outside the Will of an all-knowing, all-powerful God who is the sole Author of the universe.
I would re-phrase that as "Nothing happens outside the Knowledge of an all-knowing, all-powerful God who is the sole Author of the universe".
There is no answer to this, and BECAUSE there is no answer, the only way is to throw yourself into His will, following Him without understanding, for the fact is, we CAN'T understand. And that is my faith
Actually, that was my whole point. It's kind of useless having a debate about God but at least it does open us up to different thoughts and opinions.
Not useless la. It's more of a discussion than a debate, really. And the thing about discussions is that it opens up new ideas. What we need to do is keep actively thinking and not just absorb everything we hear over the pulpit or anywhere else.
Oh.my.gosh. I'm not even going to try to keep up with you guys!hahah
but here are the fragmented thoughts I picked up.
I think preachers in general try to get a message across in the most easy to understand way to possible. the fact is they ARE speaking to the masses, and if they were to speak in the depth and technicality that you guys are speaking in, 3/4 of the congregation is either not going to understand what on earth the message is, or they're just going to switch off.Depth and technicality of the word and God? that's what apologists are for. not sunday preachers.
Fact is, God designed us all differently. Notice how out of all the people who read this post. only about 3 and a 1/2 are engaged in this discussion? A preacher ideally would like to get the message across as clearly as possible to as many people I would think. Unfortunately, like what jared's been pointing out, it gets lost in translation. That's where its up to the individual christian to seek out the truth in their own time. What's the point of a relationship with God if you're not learning the truth's about God and the universe he created directly through your relationship with him?
Here's where it all comes together..
the answer is already out there.The truth is absolute, there's nothing we can the true truth (we could warp the truth and bend it to our own understanding like we humans do but ultimately the truth is still out there *cue x-files*)
SO! in my understanding, to get the right answers you need to ask the right questions.
For example,Going back to the original thought of homosexuality and god intending it bla bla bla. A good question to ask is, What is God's nature that we know of that supports the idea that he ordained homosexuality?
I don't know..haha. I just vomited out a chunk of thoughts, I don't know if this is relevant to what you guys were talking about.okbye.
Genesis 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.
Exodus 20:20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning"
Jeremiah 16:10-12
10. When you tell these people all this and they ask you, 'Why has the lord decreed such a great disaster against us? What wrong have we done? What sin have we committed against the Lord our God?
11. then say to them, 'It is because your fathers forsook me,' declares the Lord, 'and followed other gods and served and worshiped them. They forsook me and did not keep my law.
12. But you have behaved more wickedly than your fathers. See how each of you is following the stubbornness of his evil heart instead of obeying me.
13. So I will throw you out of this land into a land neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you will serve other gods day and night, for I will show you no favour.
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1 John 3:7
7. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who deos what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
9. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
10. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand under it.
===================================
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I do not want to propose any ideas or understanding that i have, because my knowledge of God is limited. I always thought that the Bible which is from God, will be able to explained itself ALWAYS. So, here i quoted a few verses from the Bible, you guys out there, read them CAREFULLY. Go to those verses, and READ the entire passage, and ask God to provide you the understanding. There are more verses that describes about this, and please, before coming up with your own HUMANLY puny understanding, support it with bible verses. Go figure.
wahahahahahahahahaha
truly amusing, truly amusing
no offense but ppl who talk so much and yet say "I DONT KNOW" at the end of the day really amuses me
u know what, why dont you read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, it may take u 4 months, 6months, 1 year, 2years or more. Every last word of it. No skipping. Or better yet since ppl here like to talk smart, go study ancient greek and hebrew and read the Bible in its original language.
Then come back and continue your amusing discussions. God's purpose, God's nature and whatever you want to know about God and God's ultimate plan for is all in the Bible.
It is funny how Christians like to act and talk like Christians when they dont even take time to read the Bible and truly study it to understand what God is saying but instead come up with some idealogies to fit thier own human desires.
Just some food for thought
1 Tim 2:4 "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"
Ta-da right smack in 1 Timothy, one of God's desires.
Then you may say "Then WHY DONT GOD DO IT HIMSELF?"
Ohh Good Question, then for what need Christians? Because the responsibility of preaching the good news of Jesus Christ is given to Christians (Matt 28:18-20). You do know that if you dont warned those who are in Sin, thier blood is on your hands if they die. Did you know? As usual, you wouldnt
Read Ezekiel 33:8-9
Ta-da it is in the Bible..
My point is this, enuff of talking go out and do the work (The harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few) instead of wasting your time arguing to proof who is right (be it the speaker, other Christian friends, or whosoever). At the end of the day, who it is for? It is for urself, to satisfy yourself, selfishness.
Ppl always blame the speaker when they mis-understand instead of clarifying what he actually meant.
There are ppl who are going into eternal damnation, what are you Christians doing?
*actually btw juz to let u know, God is appearing to many muslims esp in the middle east in visions and dreams because it is tough to preach the gospel there. And many have come to believe. And Christians still die preaching the gospel there. God is definitely doing His part. What are we doing?
=D 30 comments...
When you are in school, you refer to a textbook. In university, you are required to write your own thesis.
If the Bible had all the answers, I would not have questions. I am glad to say "I don't know". When I am unable to say it, the adventure would be over.
I assure you, reading the Bible is only the first step.
Yesterday I saw the bright shining eyes of a curious and questioning man. A man that had found a question, an "I don't know".
May my life be filled with "I don't know"s. I pray my eyes will always be that of a wondering child.
May they never be filled with the soulless burn of the fanatic, the robot that is unable to change its programming, and knows that all it has in its mind is enough.
Even worse the dull eyes of livestock, that spend their lives content to graze where they are driven.
I am glad to tell you that the bible does have all the answers. Whether or not you make an effort to find that answer, that's another question.
Coming up with a question about God is no doubt a good thing (will test a person's faith as the question will ultimately be answered), but coming up with a conclusion without any facts (ie: bible) is not a good thing.
If a person come up with such conclusions without any basis, one may wonder, is it your humanly conclusion, or God's truth? If it is a person's own humanly selfish conclusion, I no longer see a difference in that person's "conclusion" and other distorted religions. There could be 2 main categories of faith, "blind faith", and "child like faith". Which category of faith a person is, is for that person to find out.
@Jared. That was beautiful.
@Isaac. I found your 'okbye' so cute. And I liked that you said this.
"That's where its up to the individual christian to seek out the truth in their own time. What's the point of a relationship with God if you're not learning the truth's about God and the universe he created directly through your relationship with him?"
The thing is, do we draw our revelations directly from God? Or do we limit him by constantly referring to the Bible?
I know many fundamental Christians would argue that anything that is not of the Bible is not of God. I disagree with this. If God really is all-powerful, he can speak through any medium he wishes to, don't you think?
I said before that "I love the Bible." I have read the whole thing and it is a magnificent piece of literature.
I know that I said that I was an atheist. (I'm probably going to take heat for that as well, because I'm not a traditional atheist.) And I am an atheist on a quest for Truth.
And to do that, I have had to discard all pre-conceived ideas of God and 'Truth', including those derived from the Bible.
@Amused Outsider. I took the liberty of editing this section of your comment. Your entire comment was very refreshing. Some amusement after all that intelligent rambling was deeply entertaining. You showed us that we're not required to "talk smart" to get a point across. I found something to agree with in your intentionally stupid and badly-written comment.
It is funny how Christians like to act and talk like Christians when they don't even take time to read the Bible and truly study it to understand what God is saying but instead come up with some ideologies to fit their own human desires.
@ericsim. If you think that the Bible has all the answers, then I don't think you've truly grasped its magnificence.
I am not too sure about your comment, but, the magnificence for me, is that the bible does have the answer from everything.
And to that
"The thing is, do we draw our revelations directly from God? Or do we limit him by constantly referring to the Bible?"
Maybe you can say I am not that matured Christian, drawing conclusions directly from God?
That may happen, if and only if I really know that is of God (it might be from the devil) and that the conclusion drawn must not contradict with the Bible. And I am pretty sure, there will be verses to support your arguments (if they are from God).
so all-intelligent great mighty jeannette who seeks the Truth and hopefully nothing but the Truth and if so help us that you find the Truth since you have discarded the Truth
since you say you read through the whole Bible *i salute you* So many Christians haven't even read the whole Bible before and for an atheist to have read the whole bible.
"If you think that the Bible has all the answers, then I don't think you've truly grasped its magnificence"
Q: what magnificence have you grasp from the Bible? I am dying to know.. oh pls tell me pretty pls
"The thing is, do we draw our revelations directly from God? Or do we limit him by constantly referring to the Bible?"
LOL, so how do you draw your revelations directly from God? How do you know that the revelations you are drawing from is of God and not from your own inner desires or even from the devil?
How do you even come to that notion that we limit God by referring to the Bible?
Interesting indeed, enlighten me =)
"I know many fundamental Christians would argue that anything that is not of the Bible is not of God. I disagree with this. If God really is all-powerful, he can speak through any medium he wishes to, don't you think?"
LOL, *clap clap* you know that many fundamental Christians?
So what is not of the Bible? Enlighten me O great intellectual seeker of the Truth
Duh of course God can speak through any medium God wishes to. God is after-all God. Who is saying God cant?
And btw, i don't need to write in the queen's english.. this is not even an exam.. no time to articulate my words so beautifully for you to read.. am so sorry if it spoils your mood reading it. May you forgive me =)
It's funny how the the 'Christians' in this discussion have condescending tones and are so full of thinly-veiled righteous anger.
@Josh. Heehee... By the way, I'm going to church tomorrow. See you there! =)
hahaha..Josh =D
ola people who have many words! :D
I have read through all the comments (Yes I truly have read all 30+++ comments) and everyone has a valid point including amused outsider (hi btw)
I actually have heaps of work to do and am pretty stressed out if not I would have answered more early on :D
Jared I don't think you know me enough to say "there are some parts that refer to me" but I will hear you out one day when you have the time. I would truly feel insulted should you have meant to box me in.
I think what I can share is my personal experiences. I believe in thinking for ourselves not just absorbing from the pulpit
I believe God's word is the one thing that can get me through my day. I don't think it holds all the answers, cos God's coming back again and where we are is just temporary. But then again ALL the answers is once again subject to how you define "all the answers"
I agree with most of what Josh is saying, except Josh you don't have to point out righteous anger. I think it's fair to say anyone would strongly defend what is so precious to them. i.e: they have most likly misunderstood. We should give them understanding.
I think Jared it's great to say at the end of it "I don't know" I like the Bright eyes thing.
>.....I know many fundamental Christians would argue that anything that is not of the Bible is not of God. I disagree with this. If God really is all-powerful, he can speak through any medium he wishes to, don't you think?.......<
I think what ppl mean to say is in every medium you hear God speak through depend on the Bible to give you clarification. if it correlates then YAY
I think what Jared says about trusting God even when it makes no sense is the way I feel.
I don't speak much on issues anymore. I used to when I was younger. My old blog contained many a long post. I think Jean you will find that many many ppl in church are on a quest much like yours, just none are so bold as to proclaim it.
I love God, I truly do. I have questioned his existence many a time. But like Puddleglum the Marshwiggle from Narnia said to the Witch,
"One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things - trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia."
:D that's how I feel when things start to seem ridiculous, I just qoute the Marshwiggle
ps: I'm a big C.S Lewis fan.
you guys have to much free time
Hey guys, i had a really great time when the speaker spoke about God's sovereign will that somehow allows us free will even if his will is accomplished in the end. This happened in the Monash Christian Fellowship yesterday (wednesday) evening.
I’d like to ask a question that’s even more puzzling, more compelling than the question that if Jesus created everything, then it implies that he determined sin to exist. If so, then why would Jesus create everything knowing that Jesus would have to become a human being and suffer such a terrible, tormenting and humiliating death on the cross? I have often struggled with my own bitterness but why would an innocent person plan to die for me and take my punishment, some of which I deserve?
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